The Stand-Up Theologian
James Cary, BBC comedy writer, author and touring stand-up theologian is on a never-ending quest to understand comedy, the Bible, culture and the church.
The Stand-Up Theologian
Is there book in you?
Is there a book in you? Have you checked? Do you need to be talked into it? Or out of it? And who cares? You care! But will anyone else? Matt Bird helps people write their story. So this is a conversation about the pain, euphoria, self-delusion, vanity and the therapeutic nature of writing a book.
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Hello there, James Carey here. I'm the stand-up theologian. Here's the question: Do you have a book in you? Do you have a story to tell?
SPEAKER_02:The thing is Unless you're famous, who's gonna be interested in reading your story?
SPEAKER_00:Ooh. That's uh fairly harsh but fair. Matt Bird has got a lot of really good advice on what to do if you're thinking about writing a book. I've written a couple, in fact, three, well, four, five. Oh, I don't know. Anyway, if you're thinking about writing a book or are interested in the process of writing one, this is the episode for you. Maybe you don't know where to start, or you're worried about writer's block.
SPEAKER_02:Writer's block is an excuse for poor planning.
SPEAKER_00:Wow, okay, thanks Matt. This is gonna be interesting. Kling on everybody, it's gonna be fun. Here we go. So here I am with uh Matt Bird, author, speaker, mentor, and founder of Publish You. Welcome to the Stand-Up Theologian Podcast.
SPEAKER_02:Hey James, it's great to be with you and all your listeners.
SPEAKER_00:Thank you very much. And you have found yourself sort of mentoring people who would like to write books via this um thing you've uh established called Publish You. And this actually came to mind the other day because a friend of mine was really struggling to write a book and he'd mentioned it. And I just suddenly, and I was puzzled because I because I'm a writer, and so I have to I have to stop myself from writing books because books are very tricky to get right, as you would know. But what is it about writing a book that almost everybody else, most normal people, find so unbelievably hard? And there's probably lots of reasons, but what are the ones that you encounter where people come to you just to say, I want to write a book and I have no idea what to do, or it's not working?
SPEAKER_02:Well, there are two things. One is people come to me and say, Matt, I want to write a book, but I don't know where to start. Yeah, that's that's common. Uh the the other one, of course, is oh Matt, I've started to write a book but I got stuck. And that is nearly as common because you know, lots of people think, Oh, I can write a book, I know what to do, and off they go, and they get you know fewer through a few chapters and just they grind to a halt and and never move again. I mean, what I mean, the only thing worse than not knowing where to start or getting stuck is actually finishing a book um that can't get published because there are millions of millions and millions of um book manuscripts stuck on computer hard drives around the world that have never been published, never will be published because they're unpublishable. Yeah, that's a not that's that's a real problem. Yeah you know, no nobody wants to invest all that time and energy and emotion in writing a book that's not going to see light of day, you know.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, and it and I think that's the thing that people possibly underestimate at the start is the emotional toll that it takes on you. And actually, I I had a chat with somebody the other day, I was talking about writing a book or something, I can't remember how it came up, but they just said, Oh, I I've I've never wanted to write a book. And I've said, I'm so glad you've said that because you have saved yourself an awful lot of pain. Of course, the sort of person that says that, you just think, oh, I I think actually that would be really interesting to hear up, hear more about that. But I think people underestimate the actual torture of it, not just the how difficult it is, but just pouring yourself into it. Uh I mean, you must have encountered lots of people who struggle with that. What what what is it about that emotion that's so hard?
SPEAKER_02:Well, do you know I spend most of my time, James, actually telling people the opposite. I actually say to people, you know, writing a book is easier than you think. Right. But you need to know how. Right, okay, interesting. Because if you if you don't know what you if you if you if you've got to put a car engine together and you don't know what you're doing, it's a nightmare. But if you know what you're doing, it's you know, it's obvious where things go and how you do things. I mean, yeah, you you you have a talent for writing comedy, and you know, uh it's it's just second nature to you or has become second nature to but ask somebody to write comedy who has no idea what they're doing, it's like disaster.
SPEAKER_00:Yes, that's right. It it's normally filthy, actually. People just panic and write rude stuff, uh, but yeah, so I think there's that paralysis, isn't it? Which in a way is emotionally difficult because it does make you feel dumb because it just seems so straightforward. Why is this so incredibly hard? But how because also I guess people come to you with a variety of books as like, oh, my you know, I have a story and I want to tell my story. Are quite a lot of your clients people with a story to tell rather than life advice to give or those sorts of things? How does that work out?
SPEAKER_02:It it's normally a story to tell or a message to communicate. And you know, those people who come to me with a story to tell, um I like to encourage them. Uh and the way I encourage them is to tell them unless you're famous, who's gonna be interested in reading your story? Right? Yeah, because because you know, actually sometimes we need a little wake-up call, you know. I mean, if all we if if we are if we are happy to only sell our book to our family and dearest friends, you know, then write your story. Yeah, yeah. Uh write your story. But actually, if you want a book to sell a little bit more widely, I'm not saying don't use your story, don't tell your story. And so what I encourage people to do, if they want to tell their story, I encourage them to storyboard it out visually, because I I'm a visual person and you know, and and then look at it and say, well, what's the thread that runs through it all? Where does all this kind of what what what's the theme that that that runs throughout my story? And then to actually write the book about that theme. Yeah, yeah. And and you can you then use your story to illustrate the theme, and you can use other people's stories to illustrate the theme, and you can include some of your story, you know, and and and change the names so that the whole book isn't about you. Yeah, because unless you're famous, you know, maybe you shouldn't be writing a book about you.
SPEAKER_00:I I see that you're drinking a bottle of cold water at that moment, and that is a bucket of cold water on somebody, isn't it? Which is this is all very interesting, but no one's interested because, no offense, no one's heard of you. I mean, you've done them a huge favour at that point, uh, which is and it sounds harsh, doesn't it? But but but people are deluding them because I think that's the thing that I was most keen to talk about in this conversation is the fact that people are not honest about their motives, and I'm fascinated by that because sitcom characters are not honest about their motives, and sometimes their true motives are invisible to them. But when people want, you know, write a sitcom script, I want to say to them, look, this sitcom isn't going to be produced and end up on television because mine aren't, and I've got a far better track record than you, and I'm really good at it. The chance that you know failure is virtually guaranteed, it's almost certain. So, within the world of sitcom rights, you know, it's like there are three, four, five new sitcoms on a year in the UK at the moment, and in the publishing world, the the sort of the 80-20 rule, it's not 80-20, it's 99-1. There are 20 authors that everyone's heard of, and then everybody else. And so, but I think people secretly have that this could become a big thing, don't they?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, there is a little bit of delusionment, you know, that we think because yeah, I mean, let's face it, people's stories are amazing. Yeah, I've not met a person whose story isn't amazing, but just because your story is amazing doesn't mean it's gonna be a best seller. Yeah. And and what one of the things I do at the start of the writing my book course, the course that I coach, is I I help people work out what their motivation is for writing the book. Brilliant. Brilliant. And the reason I do this for a number of reasons. One is because it helps keep them going when the going gets tough. Two is it helps them overcome their gremlins when some when there's a voice in their head telling you you're stupid or rubbish or whatever, you can just silence it and turn up the volume on your motivation. But also when it comes to the end and your book's published, how are you going to measure success? Yes. Are you gonna measure success by uh well how traditional publishers measure success, which is numbers because they've got big central city office blocks to pay the rent on, so they need to sell books, you know. Um, or is there something deeper and more meaningful than just sales numbers? Yeah. And and and so I always like to remind my authors when their books are published to actually go back to their original motivation and measure their success against that. Now, I'm not saying numbers of sales aren't important, but but actually there's something much more profound than simply the number of books sold.
SPEAKER_00:You need to be honest about that at the start if you can, because otherwise you are just setting people up for failure because you were never honest about the the motives in the first place.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, yeah. And I you know it's love, I love it when people say, you know, I I want to write my story, and I you know, and some people I you can't get them off telling their story, and that's fine. And I coach lots of people to write their story, and and and they often go into it saying, Yeah, if my book just helps one person, yeah, I'll be happy. Um Twist you want to say, you're just one, really. Yeah, it's not only one. But but do you know the that purity of motive I love, yeah. And and obviously I want them to do a bit better than that.
SPEAKER_00:That's my job. The other thing that's interesting, isn't it? You you as the outsider can see what's interesting about someone's story. And I remember talking to somebody who wanted to write a book about sort of Christian doctrine that was sort of, you know, Christianity 101, this is sort of common sense Christianity, as it appears to me. And this is someone with no platform or authority, uh, an older person who was not particularly culturally literate or anything like that. So there was literally zero appeal. And but and and then we get this other thing, which is they feel that God told them to write this book. And I've I've said this to Jonathan Carswell at 10 of those, and I think Caleb Woodbridge, who was at IVP. It's like because they get it too, they get told God told me to write this book, to which they can realistically reply, God didn't tell me to publish it. I didn't the memo was not CC'd to me as well. But the thing is, clearly, this person found it a thing that they had to do, that they wanted to do, and it's a way in which someone can review their own life story. So I I read a book that uh my dad came across, not a Christian book or anything, but a guy who'd run a farm slightly overextended himself, became a name at Lloyd's, lost a ton of money, had it so his life story was actually kind of interesting. It was interesting to me because I'm come from a farming background and that kind of stuff, but it was sort of a bit of a bag of bits, which um and I don't think there was any great epiphany which was I was reading it just thinking, I think you're quite greedy. Do you know what I mean? I just thought there was no reflection, there was no kind of looking back and just thinking, well, what is the story here? Who who am I and what have I become? So for some people, presumably, there's quite a lot of you know a good reason to think about writing a book and to tell your story is to say, Well, what is your story? And that must be quite hard because at that point you're sort of turning into a therapist if you're not careful or a life coach. And I know you have a bit of experience in that too, but you know, that that must be a fascinating part of the process, but quite difficult again.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, and and and you know, when people begin to talk to me about their book idea, and and I coach people in groups, James, the course is uh five to ten people, and do you know what? The the friendship that's built, the camaraderie, the encouragement, the the sounding board, the ideas is phenomenal. Um but at the beginning, where I'm encouraging people to begin to talk about their books, some people I know they're gonna have to find a counsellor to track with them through the book because they're writing about things that uh that are that are deep and things that they haven't fully recovered from. Yeah, but but actually, do you know what? One of the lovely things about writing books that I find is that it's very therapeutic, and some people even find healing in writing their book. So I had a a lovely uh author from Australia who I coached to write their book, and when I interviewed them for the publishing podcast on the day the book was published, um they said to me, Matt, writing my book and seeing it published has completed my healing. They wrote about childhood trauma and their recovery from it. I had another author who was writing about schizophrenia.
SPEAKER_00:Right.
SPEAKER_02:And midway through the course they reached out to me and said, Matt, I'm getting used to living with a quiet mind. I've lived with voices in my head for 14 years, and for the first time in my memory, I'm I'm now you know used to getting used to living with a with a quiet mind because the therapeutic nature of writing about trauma and your experiences is so so powerful.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Yeah, and also in that cohort, people are listening to each other's stories, and I'd imagine that occasionally somebody else is jumping in and can see in someone else's story the interesting bit. So somebody's telling their life story, and then the bit that they just gloss over, oh, and at that point I went off and I worked in an oil rig for three years. But after that, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, that's what's an incredibly and they're just like, Well, why did you do that? Well, I don't know really. I I think you should probably have a think about it, you know, because but also that's the bit where you just think, what so what you, a young thin lady in her 20s, went off to work. It's like, I mean, that's a movie, you know, that's a thing where so people can hear, and then the moment you realise that somebody else's life, the story isn't quite where they thought it was, it's like, do you know what? Your maybe your story isn't quite what you thought it was either. That must be a fascinating thing.
SPEAKER_02:I mean that, you know, group group session. And peer feedback is is profoundly powerful, you know, as the the group journeys. And you know, over the three months of the course, people develop deep friendships because they go through this incredible experience together of writing their their first book normally. Yeah. And uh it it is it is yeah, really amazing.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah. And you you you are laying yourself bare in front of complete strangers, which oddly is slightly easier than doing it in front of people that do sort of know you a bit as well, isn't it? There's that odd candor that you can have with strangers that you can't quite have if somebody you half know is helping you write the book, you're suddenly revealing stuff.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, yeah. And it's good training because uh I mean, James, yeah. Well, you know this. So whether you're writing your story or something else, there's always a lot of you in the book.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:And and when it's first published, you do feel like you're walking down the high street completely naked.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Because you've put so much of yourself into it, and and anybody, you know, the the man driving the taxi or the woman with the kids or the person at the checkout could have bought your book and read it and know your most intimate thoughts and feelings about subjects.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:And it's just a like uh it's it's you want to put your baseball cap on and dark glasses, you know, and slide down the high street.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. But the thing that I'm learning also for myself, because I've I've written so I've written books about comedy and faith and that kind of stuff. So I wrote The Sacred Art of Joking about how comedy works and why it goes wrong and why people get mortally offended by it and that kind of stuff. Um, and I wrote a book called The Gospel According to a Sitcom Writer, which is more kind of funny stuff from scripture that I've amplified and sort of, you know, that kind of stuff. And they were both published by uh SBCK, and that's all fine. But as I've gotten older as well, I've become much more comfortable talking about my own story, and I've kind of I feel like I've got the confidence more to do it. And actually, this morning I was writing a blog post about how my career hasn't gone as I'd hoped for. And actually, there's a previous podcast in this series where I talked to Andy Kind who said, you know, he said, Well, like you, James, I'm both uh my my I've had moderate, limited, and partial success. And I was like, Wow, you know, put that on the poster. That's just an incredible but absolutely right that I'm not I'm not I'm more successful as a sitcom writer than I dreamed possible when I was 19. But I'm less successful than I thought I could have been when I turned 30 because I'd already done quite well. So it's like, yeah, that's right. It is actually a bit of a so but the moment you acknowledge that, and and today I was just writing about where did I drop the ball in about 2019, 2018, 2019, where I just had a bit of success, but I didn't keep it going, and I was a bit complacent or this and that. And I'm able to talk about that in a way that I probably couldn't have done, well, certainly not in 2019, but um, but looking back, and I think but the reason I mention that is because all the people who advise you on writing, particularly if you're trying to get clients for this or that, if you've got uh uh a business that you're doing, and you know, I I do some advising of sitcom writing and that kind of stuff. But people want to hear about you, and actually, part of the trust is the fact that you you are open and honest about the fact that you know you didn't have the Ten Commandments of sitcom writing handed down from Mount Sinai. Um that that's a bit of exodus I would like to read, please. Um, but they they they didn't make it. Um, they might have got you know thrown out with the golden calf or something, ground down into powder and fed uh to the Israelites. So it doesn't seem so funny now, does it, Israelites? Uh and also Jewish people don't need any help with comedy. I mean they're geniuses at it, you know, it's just uh it's it's part of who they are. But I think giving part of yourself is the interesting bit. So I guess when people are telling their story, they're telling you what happened, but actually the the bit that's really interesting and relatable is kind of how they felt about it and their own hopes and dreams as they went into it. And it takes a long time for people to realize that I'm discovering having just turned 50.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, yeah. I mean, I've there's a lady I published uh I I coached and then we published um who wrote about funerals. She's a celebrant, and she spends her life um you know with families who have lost someone they love dearly, and she gets to step into people's worlds at the most vulnerable and painful of points. And uh she wrote a book called The Finale, and it's full of funny stories, real life stories of real life people. There might be some good content for you there. Oh, yeah, absolutely.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Stepping into people's vulnerability and writing about it and your own vulnerability and writing about it is is really powerful.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Lots of interesting senses there about the about the author and the journey that they're going on. How do people then, when they go through the process, what what what parts of it do people tend to find difficult? Because you kind of lay out, you know, I'm sure you you make it very uh simple. I've seen how you can just sort of break it down into an hour a day over a particular period, which I think is great. But I do but different people find different things difficult. So in my line of work in writing comedy, some people find coming up with characters really easy, some people find stories really easy, some people find jokes really easy. You do need to do all three at the same time, backwards and in high heels, if you like. But I guess different people find different parts of the process difficult. But what where where do you sense the real pain points are?
SPEAKER_02:The the the real pain point is committing in the first place, right? Saying, actually, I'm gonna do this, um, because everything else is is is beyond that, it's it's much easier, you know. I set an assignment, I always emphasize the assignment I set at the end of each session is not homework, it actually has a purpose in the world. Yes, and I and I try and make it as easy as possible for people. So I tell them exactly what they need to do, I explain to them how they can do it, and I provide them with a technique or a template to literally follow in order to be able to complete the assignment. So really it's the initial step of commitment to say, I'm gonna do this, and then and then trusting me, you you don't need to know everything at once, but I'll I will explain what you need to know when you need to know it. Uh and so just trust. And if you if you complete each of the assignments, you you will be one of the nine out of ten people that finishes the course with a manuscript for your book.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:It really is as simple as that. And I'm not saying it's not hard work.
SPEAKER_00:Oh, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:But but but I'm saying it it it it it the most difficult thing is saying, actually, I'm gonna do this.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, and it feels like people don't find getting words on the page as difficult as we might think. Because I mean people are paralyzed about the blank page, but but it sounds like once people get going, actually, they spend they've probably spent half their life typing anyway, because you you can't avoid typing these days, can you?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And once you get into a flow, you know, and I'm I work very carefully with my authors uh to plan their book extensively before they start. Um because I don't I don't believe in writer's block. I don't know about you, James, but writer's block.
SPEAKER_00:I can't I can't afford it, so I don't believe in it.
SPEAKER_02:Writer's block is an excuse for poor planning, in my in my in my yeah. And that may sound harsh, but if you get writer's block, it means you haven't planned what you're gonna write before you started writing it. And you know, the way to write a book is to plan it before you write it. Um in my in my in my view.
SPEAKER_00:Um yeah, no, I I do say that to sitcom writers. I say, writing a sitcom script is so unbelievably painful. For heaven's sake, cheat. And by cheating, decide ahead of time what's in every scene. My approach tends to be to work up your characters, your plot, and your situation, and that kind of stuff, and then you sort of work out what happens in each scene, and now go over it again, and now go over it again. So by the time you're actually typing the script, you're basically joining the dots, and you've already got some key jokes and moments, you know what each scene is doing, and that you know, and ideally you're at the point where you just think, look, if I don't start writing this script now, I'm just gonna kill somebody. So you want to kind of get people bursting to get on with it. Um, and that makes it kind of as easy as possible. But having a plan, I think, and there are some geniuses who don't plan, and that's great.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, there's always an exception. Yeah, but most of us, and I put and I include myself very firmly in that, we're not the exception. No, and we just need we need the security of knowing what we're gonna do before we start doing it, yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Because also, if you don't, you're gonna end up possibly deleting 30, 40, 50,000 words, and that is even as a professional writer, that is unbelievably painful to delete that many words. Oh my goodness. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Hope you're enjoying this conversation. During the course of which I mentioned the fact that I've written a few books. You can buy those books from me, I mean you can probably get them on Amazon, but you could buy them from me in person, signed and all that, if you come to one of my gigs, God, the Bible and everything in 60 minutes. And I'm touring the UK with that until October next year. So why don't you come and see me at one of those gigs? Go to jamescary.co.uk, and you will find out where I am. And if I'm not near you, you could change that, get in touch, and maybe we could sort out a gig somewhere in a church near you. But I can do theatres. I did the Gulbenkian theatre in Canterbury not so long ago. That was fun. JamesCerry.co.uk, link in the show notes for that and various other things mentioned during the podcast. Let's get back to the conversation, shall we? Yeah, you get that euphoria of finishing. And then for me, the other bit about writing a book, so covering the pages are no problem at all, and I write articles very quickly and easily. I am not a complete finisher, and so I find the stuff at the other end incredibly hard and boring because in my head I'm already thinking, well, this basically works. I I've solved the mental puzzle in my head that I think I know what the real story is, I think I know where the jokes are. Unfortunately, for many years I worked with a guy called Richard Hurst and we did Bluestone 4.2 together. We worked on Miranda and stuff. He's a great completion finisher, so actually, we we've we've made a very good team in that respect. But um, yeah, how do you keep people going to the bitter end? And I guess some people don't need that encouragement because they're just endlessly fiddling with it.
SPEAKER_02:But yeah, yeah, yeah. And then I was gonna make that comment exactly, James, because perfectionism is a problem.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Um there are a number of things that don't sell books, and one of them is perfectionism.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Perfecting your manuscript is not gonna make it a bestseller. Yes, some of the best sellers of our time are not well-written books.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Um, and I have a guest author on the writing my book course, and he's got a best-selling book, and he will say, he'll be the first to say, This is not the best book I ever wrote. No, but it's the book that sold the most copies by tens and tens and tens and tens and tens of thousands. Yeah. Because what makes a best-selling book isn't perfectionism. So if you're a perfectionist listening to this, please get over it. Um, it's not gonna make your book a bestseller. Yeah, uh, your your book sells, it it strikes a chord in the zeitgeist. You know, it it appears at a moment in time where it captures the imagination of the populace, or somebody mentions it on a radio show and off you go. It's yeah, do you mean there are a million reasons why your book might become a bestseller, but one of them I guarantee you is not that it's per perfect.
SPEAKER_00:Yes, that chapter chapter seven um is is so is so brilliant that it's like, yeah, if they've made it to chapter seven, you're you're fine, you know, they're gonna finish the book. Um, they've already decided based on the intro, the cover, and the first chapter and the and the blurb or whatever. Um, no, I I that's definitely true. But I think you just highlighted something there, which again I was gonna um I should have asked about earlier. When people are writing situation comedies, and I used to say this on a podcast I did called sitcom geeks as well, we would often say three questions you need to answer about your sitcom, and you need good answers for two of out of the three, actually. You don't need all three. Why this? Why now, and why you. So if you're set if you're writing a sitcom set on an oil rig, it's like, oh okay, that's interesting. But why are you writing this about an oil rig? Oh, I used to work on one. Oh, great, so you've got behind the scenes access that you can give us the walks and all thing. Okay, that's a good start. But also, a sitcom's gonna cost about a million, two million quid to film. So you will need to tell to somebody why am I gonna spend two million quid, admittedly, of somebody else's money, uh, on this sitcom? And it's like, well, because the petrol chemical industry is in decline, and this and that, and the people are there, or whatever it is. It needs to be timely, it needs to be, you need to have some skin in the game or insight, or you need to have a particularly brilliant idea, but actually, just like, well, I mean, how much does that come into that sense of what is your story and why are you writing it now? Because there are there are some stories that hit really well at particular times and some that are fascinating but just are not for now.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, it's it's really hard because the world can change very quickly, and it does. It's hard to calculate these things to say I'm gonna write this book because of X, Y, and Z, you know, by the time you've written it and got it published, the world could have changed.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:So writing evergreen books is probably the way to go, right? You know, uh particularly if you're gonna use a traditional publisher, because it will take you 12 to 18 months before the book will see light of day. Yeah, yeah. So the world has definitely changed. Changed after 18 months. I mean, we publish books within three months. So we coach people to write their book in three months. We publish books in three months. So we've we've got a fighting chance of getting the book out while it's still relevant. Yes. But but evergreen stories, evergreen messages, you know, are really important because of the rapid societal change we're facing.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. How do you think uh AI is changing things?
SPEAKER_02:Probably not as much as one might think, but yeah, because I mean there are some well, I mean, AI is changing rapidly, but the the rule is you can't use AI to write your book and publish it legally. I mean, that's the the tall and short of it. But and we mentioned editing earlier, you know, one of the pain points in the writing journey is editing your book. Well, yeah, AI editing software has made editing your book immensely easier. Right. Well, you know, ADHD, um, you know, I was in remedial English classes at school. Actually, having a friendly piece of AI editing software is jolly useful. Um and this is the other thing, you know, I just want to say to people listening, you do not need to know how to spell to write a book. Neither do you need to know how to do English grammar, neither do you know need to know X, Y, or Z, because that that can all be fixed very easily.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:As long as you're carrying a story or carrying a message and you can somehow get it written down in a in a coherent structured way, um, actually editing is has become easier and easier.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah. I mean, I use ChatGPT, I pay for Chat GPT 5, and it's brilliant for image generation, uh, but also because I yeah, I I use it to make sort of visual jokes to back up uh the stuff that I do online, but also I use it as a spell, it's basically a spell checker, and it keeps adding M dashes, which is incredibly annoying.
SPEAKER_02:But you know when a piece of work's been written by AR and someone's too lazy to edit it afterwards. I don't I don't even call it an EM dash, I call it the AI dash.
SPEAKER_00:Oh, okay. Thing is, uh annoyingly, I've I've always liked using dashes in my prose, which I've now stopped doing or at least stopped using quite so much because it looks like I've I've just got it written uh by somebody else. But yeah, as a as a tool, it is it is very powerful and helpful, but as a creation thing, it's it's it's it is slop in terms of it's it's going to give you the medium, the bang average medium, which is of no interest to anyone. Um, but as you were talking there about uh dyslexia and those sorts of things, I guess the other piece that's exciting to me, because I'm an audio guy, hence I've got a podcast, and this podcast is not available as a video, is audiobooks are a big deal and getting bigger and bigger, and lots of people really only read by listening. How has that impacted things for you from a book writing point of view?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, well, when when eBooks came out, you know, everybody's saying, Oh, they're gonna destroy physical books. Well, they didn't, they nibbled at the market of physical books, but grew the overall book market, and I think it's the same audiobooks, yeah, it's nibbled at the traditional physical book, but it's grown the overall book market because people who don't read will will um you know listen to an audiobook. Yeah, I've had a little project this year where I've been writing pocket books because of my view is people are overloaded with information and short on time. So, what if you could have a book that fitted in your pocket and you could read in 30 minutes? So I've been writing these pocket books. So I've written one a month this year and published it. Okay. So I've just my 11th one is coming out this month, and uh and I'm I'm working on my my final for the year. Uh I it's been quite a challenge, but I'll I'll but I'll be pleased when it's when it's completed, and I'm I can see the end line, the finish line at sight. It's all about how can we make uh the stories and the messages that we want to communicate accessible. Um and there are many people who do not read long books, so for me, it won't replace normal books, but the pocketbook is another addition in terms of format that makes our stories and messages accessible to people who may not read a full-form book.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. And I guess what that then tips us into is the fact that uh a book feels to me, particularly a physical printed book, but that the the book manuscript is the foundation sort of um I don't want to use the word cornerstone because it's making people think think of Jesus, but but it's that foundational thing at the bottom around which other things can be built and based as well, isn't it? So, you know, obviously huge examples like the purpose-driven life was a book, but now it's a thing, you know. Uh there are lots of uh how you know the seven habits of highly effective people is an industry in its own right, but but a book is sometimes just this is the manifesto for a whole load of other things, so it just sort of sits, and I guess some of your authors are probably as interested in speaking and helping people, and the book sort of crystallizes it all.
SPEAKER_02:Yes, yeah. The book becomes a course, the book, I mean, it it it it can be used in so many ways, and and books that sell always have more legs than just being a book. Will it become a screenplay? Will it become a blog? Will it become a podcast series, you know? Uh and and books that have multi-faceted points of engagement, if I can say that, you know, have a better chance of capturing the imagination of people and being engaged with, um, because there's yeah, there's numerous points of access to the story or the message.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. And it and also it depends on your audience, particularly as well, I guess, in terms of so it's still worth the discipline of writing the actual books. I think it just orders your thoughts and gets gets the story right about where the points of interest are. But if you're trying to help particularly men of a particular section of society, you just think, okay, well, have the book, but unless there's unless there are videos to go with this, or unless there's audio to go with this, or unless there's something else to go with this, then I I almost wouldn't bother. But you do need to write the book first, I think, don't you?
SPEAKER_02:Absolutely. Start with the book.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:You can write the course or the workbook or do the videos or the podcast, it all flows from the book. Because something writing a book that clarifies your thinking. I mean, quite a number of the people I publish or coach and then publish are writing business books.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:It's amazing the number of business people who, in writing the book, then go away and re-reshape their business. Yeah. Because clarity the fact to find to write the book is so profound that they reimagine how it is they work.
SPEAKER_00:They they feel they better go back and actually do what they've been talking about or discover. No, it's true though, isn't it? Because I I'm constantly, I think about my business, as it were, a lot more than I used to, partly because I've had to, because life is much more complicated. I'm now doing a lot more things. I used to be mostly writing TV scripts or radio scripts, and now I'm doing lots of other things. And you had to constantly think, well, what am I actually doing that is shifting the needle? What do I like doing? What would I, you know, what would I do if nobody paid me that I can get people to pay me for? Well, that would be great. Well, podcasting is one of them, frankly. I mean, I really enjoy the fact that we've got to have this conversation, I found thrilling and stimulating and and and helpful. Um, so there are things like that which also kind of help other things. So I think again, it's just being strategic in your thinking, and and so, but I guess a lot of people just aren't thinking about any of this. They've just they've had an amazing life or story or event, they've got a heart to tell their story, and they just want to tell the story, and it's just like, well, just crack on, isn't it? Just yeah, let's do it. And then we we can talk about all the other stuff down the line.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, and we explore that on the journey. Yeah, I've had a couple of um uh seniors do my course, and they've been encouraged by their children, grandchildren to capture their stories and not take them with them. Um when it comes to publishing, you know, we I talk about traditional publishing, self-publishing, publish you publishing, which is a hybrid model, and they come and say, Well, you know, how should I publish my book? And I said, take it to the local printers, ran off a hundred copies, yeah, job done. And it's interesting, they go away and talk to their families, and they come back and say, No, my family have said, if I can get my book properly published, yeah, publish you, I should do that. Oh, we publish books because we're not driven by numbers in the same way that a traditional publisher is. Yeah. Because we have a deeper understanding of the reasons why uh you might write a book, what your motivation is and what your purpose is, which which to reduce it to numbers is just not right.
SPEAKER_00:I mean, to just talk about those, um, we're gonna wrap up fairly soon. But those books you've been writing this year, I don't know, do they shed any light on how you've ended up doing what you're doing? Because this is a fascinating world that you're doing. And in a way, I've never gone quite down this path of mentoring people to write situation comedies, because then there's an element of co-writing, and it's just it's it's a slightly asymmetrical relationship that's a bit complicated. Um, but I love helping people do it because I I I love situation comedy so much, it kind of bothers me when a script comes and I'm just like, Oh, you need to fix it, my dude. But how have you ended up doing this? Because this is this is quite a specific thing to be doing.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, my pocketbook collection this year has all been personal and professional development. Okay, so I started off the year with Yes, I can, but overcoming self-limiting beliefs in March. I actually did two because it was World Book Day and World Speech Day. So I did a book on Write My Book and another book on Give My Speech. Right. Uh, then I did one on Unleash My Entrepreneur about starting a business and becoming a business owner. You know, I did one in in the summer called Finding My Thing, by which I mean finding your meaning and purpose in life. Um, this month is my coaching business. So if you want to run a coaching business like me, I coach people to write and publish books, etc. You know, it all is all in this pocketbook. Um, my coaching business. So I just I just love taking very practical stuff that actually other people would love to learn from you. Um put in a little book you can read in half an hour. For me, I just think what little gems. I can see I can see them on the bookshelf over there, you know, they're all multicoloured, and and then in 2026 I'm gonna publish them as a compilation, hardback compilation, and put them all in one tone. So it's been a really fun project, but I love writing about stuff that helps people.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah. And you don't you you're not uh secretly hoping to write a novel or anything like that?
SPEAKER_02:No, I I might explore poetry at some point in the future.
SPEAKER_00:Okay.
SPEAKER_02:But I do write poetry.
SPEAKER_00:I think we're we're both getting to the age where suddenly poetry doesn't seem quite so frightening. Uh absolutely. It's like previous is like I have no real use for poetry, you know. I'm a I'm a I'm a 28-year-old uh Western guy, as it were. So it's like, but now I'm just thinking, oh, it's it's it's you know, the the whittling away of words and all that kind of stuff is of more interest. But yeah, so also it feels like yeah, you're you're not someone who mentors people writing fiction. Uh there's you know, there is no shortage of advice out there about how to write fiction, as far as I can tell, but that's not your bag, really, is it?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, no, I do have people who write fiction, children's books, poetry books, but my special is not non-fiction. Yeah, I'm a non-fiction specialist. Yeah. My methodology works, whatever sort of book you're writing. Um, so but yeah, non-fiction is my passion. I love writing stuff that inspires, helps, and resources other people.
SPEAKER_00:For for people who are ruminating on writing a book, you probably aren't going to do what I do. In my I rate a book, which my agent got published on Amazon, like you know, it's all indie published as it were, uh, called Writing That Sitcom. And the first chapter or two is an intervention where I'm basically saying, don't write a sitcom, it's just too hard, it is miserable. Um, so I I basically stage an intervention to put people off. Uh, I suspect you're not going to do that because I mean sitcom writing is such a weirdly specific thing because you're not even you're not writing anything that can be published because a script is a document, it's like architectural drawings for a house. It's like no just but what are you what do you what advice are you giving to people who are thinking there is that book I would like to write? Where where where should they how should they think about it?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, uh well I would like just to invite people who are listening um to join me. Um because once a month I host an online masterclass just for an hour. Yeah, it's online so you can join anywhere in the world. And and I will unpack the publish you framework, six-fold framework for planning, writing, editing, publishing, marketing, and monetizing a book.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:And if you're interested, that would be my encouragement. Invest an hour of your time online with me uh this month, next month, the month after. I do it every month. Uh and from there you'll have uh an understanding of what's needed and what works. And and then you might want to just sign up and join my writing my book course, and I will personally coach you for three months in a small group, um, and you'll have a life-changing experience. Um and that's even before your book's published. Yeah. And people start to read it and are impacted by it.
SPEAKER_00:So I I say I've not written particularly personal books, and I and I might write one which is essentially 50 sitcoms from my life, like one from each year uh for the last 50 years, because I turned 50 uh last month. You know, I hardly ever mention it. Uh so I'm fine.
SPEAKER_02:I I identify as 35, James. Oh, so great. I had no idea what you're talking about.
SPEAKER_00:Yes, that's right. Uh but when you do bear your soul like that, it does kind of uh give you deeper conversations with people in the future, doesn't it? It does make you people think, I had no and like it's a bit like when you're older, you start asking your own parents different questions. So I remember my parents turning 40 as well as 50. They both turned 40 in 1984, and I was uh about nine. Yeah, you just sort of suddenly see people in different ways, and it's like you're open actually opening up different conversations that you can have with people who thought they knew you, but actually there's this whole other side, and they thought you knew how you felt about something, and actually, well, you've discovered that you didn't feel that way, even though you maybe you thought you did.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I maybe I can finish with a story. I met somebody this weekend, and uh I said to them, you know, if have you ever thought about writing a book? They were a fascinating person. I thought, my goodness, I would love to know what book they would write. And they said to me, Matt, they said, I'm I'm I'm gonna write my book when I become a multimillionaire. I thought I like that optimism, right? Um, but I said, but what if what if your book actually helped you become a multimillionaire? What if your book is actually part of your story of building your business, building your brand, communicating your message and attracting people to what it is that you want to do. And it was one of those moments, you know, in a conversation where you you draw breath, and I'm not saying everybody wants to be a multimillion, I mean I'm just gonna turn it down, but that's not everybody's motivation. But you know, some people think that writing as a book, writing a book is something I'm gonna do later in life.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, as a nice thing and a way of looking back, and actually that's really only one of the things, isn't it?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it can be done like that, but actually, why not write it now and allow your story, your message to actually propel your life in the direction you want it to go, because there's nothing as powerful as having a book on the subject that you're most passionate about to propel your career and your aspirations and your hopes uh to move you in that direction. So that that little story would be my closing thought if you're listening and thinking, I wonder if this is for me, maybe I should leave it till later. Don't leave it till later. If you believe something's right to do, do it now. Stop putting things off, don't procrastinate, you know. Um this this can be life-changing for you and for many other people.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah, really helpful. And also, when you're a multimillionaire, do you really think you'll have time? Because multimillionaires are very, very busy. Uh, do you know what I mean? Because you can you can easily go through your whole life just thinking, oh, in the future I'll have more time to. It's like, sorry, has that has that ever been the case?
SPEAKER_02:I spoke to somebody today and said, Oh, I'm I'm very busy in the next couple of months. So I'm thinking, um, yeah. Life is always very busy.
SPEAKER_00:Oh, yes, that's right. It's never gonna change. No, it isn't, it isn't. So, anyway, that's been really helpful, Matt. I'm really uh grateful uh for that. I'll put a link in the show notes uh to publish you so you can go and find that. But it's published with the letter U after it, so it's not terribly hard to find. Thanks very much for being a guest on the Stand Up Theologian podcast.
SPEAKER_02:James, it's been great to be with you.
SPEAKER_00:Thanks very much for listening. You've made it all the way to the end, which either suggests you're strapped to a chair and unable to skip to the next episode, or you're washing up or doing something where you are incapacitated. Maybe you're on your back repainting the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel. I'll take the win. But it may be that you really like the show, and if you want to support the show, that would be nice and help me keep going for as long as possible in 2026. Why don't you become a loyal lollard? That is a paid subscriber to the Wycliffe Papers, which is let's call it a sister publication to the Stand Up Theologian podcast. And if you go to a link in the show notes, you can see that there's lots of bonuses and exciting things coming up in 2026 for paid members of the Wycliffe Papers, also known as loyal lollards. So if you want to give me a Christmas present, go on over, follow the link in the show notes. And is this how it ends? Yeah.